Joel Slayton's recommended readings: Uncanny Networks - Geert Lovink At A Distance -Marie Chandler and Norie Neumark Precursors to Art and Activism on the Internet - Several Authors (including Caroline Jones) The Art Happens Here/ Net Art Anthology - Manuel Abreu Ceci Moss: "Expanded Internet Art" (2019) Netitudes - Josephine Bosma Protocol - Alex Gallery Internet Art - Rachel Green 21 Points for Net Art - David Ross Also: Lauren Cornell & Ed Halter (ed.): "Mass Effect: Art and the Internet in the Twenty-First Century" (2015), an anthology of essays Eva Respini: "Art in the Age of the Internet: 1989 to Today" (2018), the catalog of a Boston exhibition Aria Dean et al: "The Art Happens Here: Net Art Anthology" (2019), a by-product of the Net Art Anthology initiative that selected, restored and presented as 100 works of net-art Marie Meixnerova (ed.): "#mm Net Art-Internet Art in the Virtual and Physical Space" (2019), an international anthology of writings on net-art Monoskop's catalog of net art: https://monoskop.org/Net_art Rhizome's website 15:01:16 From Suyash Joshi : Hello! 15:01:27 From Jaime Stevens to All panelists : Joel - if you have a headset, that sometimes helps capture your sound better 15:03:53 From David Familian to All panelists : I don't see my video 15:04:05 From David Familian to All panelists : david familian 15:04:54 From David Familian to All panelists : hi Caroline it is nice meeting you my wife works with your sister at USC. 15:08:16 From Caroline Jones : Chris is doing an online light performance right now 15:08:39 From Jacqueline Wender : Is that what that is? Very nice! 15:08:48 From Suyash Joshi : We can’t see him in camera 15:08:54 From Caroline Jones : That's what I made of it 15:09:37 From DILLON SYLVESTRE to All panelists : is a portfolio an exhibitio 15:10:31 From Suyash Joshi : I think the presenters who just rely on powerpoint for their talks, that easily translates to online medium. Otherwise if there are things that need to be experienced in person that is not possible today 15:10:35 From Caroline Jones : art historian speaks: Dada was before the pandemic 15:10:43 From Mats Brodén to All panelists : is a light emitting particle ”online”? 15:11:17 From Bob Horn : What is our era saying to and asking of artists? Bob Horn 15:11:30 From Caroline Jones : only when it has to go through Joel's internet server 15:11:32 From Jaime Stevens to All panelists : Joel sounds better 15:11:42 From Robert Buelteman : Art is less an object than it is an experience. As such, online “exhibitions” have more in common with documentaries than exhibitions. 15:14:24 From Suyash Joshi : The the difference in experiencing art on Instagram vs at a Gallery/Museum .. 15:14:26 From DILLON SYLVESTRE to All panelists : the internet needs more secretaries 15:14:41 From David Familian : I think online exhibition is a medium. The artist needs to take an active role of how there work looks and is how it is experience by the audience. 15:15:44 From Jean Hurley to All panelists : Isn’t the ultimate objective to sell the artwork? 15:15:54 From Racelar Ho to All panelists : I think games, such as video games, VR/AR/MR games can be a sort of creative medium or platform to audiences. 15:16:25 From Suyash Joshi : I think there is also something to be said about experiencing art along with other people around 15:17:07 From Randall Packer : Over 20 years ago, David Ross gave a lecture at San Jose State and presented what he referred to as the 21 distinctive qualities of net. art: http://switch.sjsu.edu/archive/web/v5n1/ross/index.html 15:17:35 From Caroline Jones : Thanks -- see Timothy Druckery too 15:17:37 From Randall Packer : We’re still talking about many of the same ideas… 15:17:42 From Caroline Jones : Rhizome! 15:17:56 From Suyash Joshi : Demo scene 15:18:08 From DILLON SYLVESTRE to All panelists : technology has refracted the methods of art exhibition 15:18:30 From Suyash Joshi : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene 15:19:06 From Suyash Joshi : thanks for that link Randall 15:19:16 From David Familian : I agree that having a number of people experiencing a work online is an important attribute of the web 15:19:34 From Racelar Ho to All panelists : Thanks for the link 15:19:35 From Peggy Phelan to All panelists : Please retain and circulate this chat. Lots of good info I would like to consult later. Thank you, PP 15:19:49 From Randall Packer : David’s talk at CADRE was mind blowing still thinking about it today… 15:20:02 From Suyash Joshi : Link to his talk? 15:20:29 From Randall Packer : The link I shared was published in Switch about the talk. 15:20:43 From Suyash Joshi : thx 15:20:58 From Bob Horn : Is anybody going to bring an art piece to this discussion? 15:21:16 From Randall Packer : Actually it is a transcript of David’s talk. 15:22:13 From Suyash Joshi : VR is interesting 15:22:16 From Marilene Oliver to All panelists : Would it be possible for the names of the artists Joel mentioned to be put in the chat as I didn’t quite catch them. 15:22:37 From Suyash Joshi : VR is a barrier to entry, an successful implementation of copresence will allow access from a variety of devices and bandwidth levels 15:22:48 From Racelar Ho to All panelists : I’m researching on this type of art. And yes Jodi 15:23:11 From Peggy Phelan to All panelists : Yes, Suyash -- very important! This needs to be foregrounded. 15:23:15 From Suyash Joshi : including vr! 15:23:16 From Randall Packer : This essay by Paul Sermon is very relevant to this conversation: https://blogs.brighton.ac.uk/creative/2020/04/21/be-creative-with-your-videoconferencing-make-it-memorable-it-makes-a-difference/ 15:23:17 From Racelar Ho to All panelists : And nowadays technologies can smooth the dimension of spaces. 15:23:18 From David Familian : I agree AR is a better more meidum 15:23:25 From David Familian : than VR 15:23:47 From Racelar Ho to All panelists : Yes; actually, Mixed Reality is much better on my opinion. 15:24:48 From luca forcucci to All panelists : there is an online biennale named The Wrong 15:25:20 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : Bob Hern: there was a "Minecraft music concert" recently that may constitute as "online art" 15:25:22 From Shira Karsen : If this new online/virtual art is available to everyone and owned by no one, what does that mean for the value of the piece? 15:25:28 From Caroline Jones : #2Lizards -- check it out 15:25:31 From Meredith Tromble to All panelists : Would you post a link to the piece you are discussing, Caroline? (Two Lizards) 15:25:32 From Jacqueline Wender : Where does this leave economically disadvantaged people? 15:25:35 From Caroline Jones : Instagram 15:25:48 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : commerce? as always. 15:26:00 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : ask marx 15:26:17 From Suyash Joshi : It’s unfortunate 15:26:55 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : patreon 15:27:42 From Suyash Joshi : One computer artists I know sell his art as print outs in a frame 15:27:49 From Marcus Gordon : There are examples out there that try to balance the advantages of the internet (and the web, different things). One example is: https://www.seditionart.com/ 15:28:35 From Suyash Joshi : Wonder what Chris has to say as he works on Music 15:29:11 From Bob Horn : Curators mission: tell us the best to see. Where is this on the internet? On this webcast? 15:29:29 From David Familian : The Rhizome through the New Museum has recreated many of the important net-art works in their original browsers 15:29:53 From Jennifer Karson : This small file streaming event looks interesting https://smallfile.ca/ 15:31:14 From Robert Edgar to All panelists : It’s not just money value. In the early days of internet and internet art (mid 1980s), people saw only text, didn’t know if they were talking to an artist, an academic, or a dog. The size and scope of today’s internet and web provides something of the same inability to evaluate based on reputation. 15:32:12 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : record companies ewere designed on making money on gambles that generally lose 15:32:57 From Suyash Joshi : Music has changed so much, artists don’t get paid enough, people don’t want to pay but middle men (streaming companies nowadays) make the most 15:33:22 From Caroline Jones : I love the idea of "presence " (spatio-phenoenological) as "Synchronization" 15:33:30 From Suyash Joshi : Outside of top 1% artists 15:33:37 From Caroline Jones : phenomenological 15:33:46 From Racelar Ho to All panelists : It’s a good term 15:34:54 From Helen Glazer to All panelists : What about attention span online? Which tends to be short. The visual artists I know who have been successful online work in a pop vein. I question whether thoughtful art that has more ambiguity or subtlety breaks through. 15:35:15 From Caroline Jones : excellent point. 15:35:40 From Caroline Jones : there is no subtlety in the pixel or mp3 15:35:46 From David Kerr : This video can be seen at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkucUIiiXac 15:35:59 From Randall Packer : The satellite experiments by Kit Galloway and Sherrie Rabinowitz during the 1970s worked with audio-visual latencies to create delay effects: http://www.ecafe.com/getty/SA/index.html 15:36:18 From Caroline Jones : @Randall thanks for these awesome links 15:36:39 From Randall Packer : Another approach to latencies as an artistic technique. 15:36:43 From Norman Roth to All panelists : why hasn’t the internet provided access to video art of Bill Viola Christian Markely via a streaming service which could provide benefit to the artists and those who want to see their art 15:37:02 From Caroline Jones : it was called ubu web and artists made them stop 15:37:26 From Caroline Jones : artists want to control quality of screening/ viewing also -- not all money 15:37:49 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : my moms favourite part of an orchestra performance is just before it "starts" the "build up" 15:38:01 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : the "tuning up" 15:38:26 From Suyash Joshi : Some people have nice camera angles 15:38:27 From Randall Packer : thankfully there is no money in Internet (generally) where artist can maintain an experimental attitude. 15:38:28 From Cynthia Vargas to All panelists : I’m curious about the technology and applications used to stream on various platforms at once to include diverse audiences at once—could you share what works best to have a seamless transfer to the viewer? 15:40:34 From Kristina Dutton to All panelists : Raquel Klein and Claire Chase brought together 600 people on zoom to perform Pauline Oliveros’ piece 15:40:36 From Kristina Dutton to All panelists : https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/arts/music/music-meditation-zoom-coronavirus.html 15:41:06 From Kristina Dutton : https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/arts/music/music-meditation-zoom-coronavirus.html 15:41:44 From Kristina Dutton : Conductor/vocalist Raquel Klein put 600 people together on Zoom to sing together every Saturday 15:41:58 From Suyash Joshi : Also environment, being in a concert hall / stage vs seeing artists at home are very different experiences 15:42:24 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : avant garde ensembles are thriving because of latency issues 15:45:16 From Robert Edgar to All panelists : 5 kids can get together and make a Twitch stream. 15:46:42 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : pure data is an online daw/code collaborative music... thing 15:46:59 From Jennifer Karson : So true! New social formations. 15:47:24 From John Parham to All panelists : Since the Renaissance artists have worked in collaborative environments - Warhol called it the factory in the 60s and artist today like Koons and Damien Hirst rehire specialist to produce their work. This model could be carried to the internet. 15:48:25 From TATEV SARGSYAN : Hi Kristina- are these performances put together by R. Klein still happening and if so, do you have a URL you could share? -Tatev 15:48:32 From Racelar Ho : I’m also considering whether it will be the chance to change the game rules in art worlds. 15:48:41 From Kristina Dutton : yes they are! Hang on… 15:50:21 From David Familian : Most of the artists we sow at the Beall Center work collaboratively 15:50:53 From Caroline Jones : Interesting -- I was thinking of "trusted bodies" in physical space, but Chris is now into trust in online space 15:51:00 From Kristina Dutton : https://www.musicrebound.com/pauline-oliveros-tuning-meditation 15:52:25 From Suyash Joshi : right 15:53:11 From Norman Roth to All panelists : can a ‘traditional’ exhibit (e. Monet’s Gardens) be successfully curated for an online exhibit 15:53:12 From Suyash Joshi : Clever 15:53:38 From Steven j Oscherwitz to All panelists : I have made my paintings alone for man years. and guess what not sure if anyone wants them. either give them away or throw them away. and I went to one of the most coveted departments of painting and drawing. I do art science research to generate life. does a painting or drawing have any value any more 15:54:26 From José Pereira to All panelists : Crowdsourcing Art 15:55:26 From Racelar Ho : Yes. It’s a tough mission, though. In such type of artworks usually need to collaborate with computer engineers. And, artists need to have a stronger capacity of programming to retrieve back the control authority of the narrative of their works. 15:55:38 From Caroline Jones to Steven j Oscherwitz and all panelists : I'm sure your paintings have value -- but it's probably best if they get "socialized" and that requires community, sharing, discourse, and culture. 15:55:48 From Racelar Ho : But of course, it’s just the view based on my own experience. 15:55:54 From Caroline Jones to Steven j Oscherwitz and all panelists : some people hire assistants just so they have someone to talk to and bounce ideas off of. 15:56:28 From Andrew Blanton : There are also artist collectives like netochka nezvanova and purely virtual artist like LaTurbo Avedon that are a part of this conversation. Panther Modern and DiMoDa bridge working collectively while also presenting virtual 3D space that can be viewed in XR https://dimoda.art/ http://panthermodern.org/ 15:56:40 From Suyash Joshi : @Rachel - that is a barrier until technology becomes so advance and easy that one doesn’t have to be a coder 15:56:57 From Racelar Ho : @suyash Thanks for the link 15:58:08 From luca forcucci to All panelists : what about drive ins 15:58:10 From Racelar Ho : @suyash It’s possible I bet to independent artists; but while being an artist in the academy, I’m not sure honestly. 15:58:13 From Steven j Oscherwitz to All panelists : thanks really appreciate your response there is hope l love to paint and draw I will never stop 15:59:42 From luca forcucci to All panelists : what a bout drive in cinema for experimental music ? 16:00:46 From Racelar Ho : the audience will be impacted by the spatial atmosphere and at some point, this will change their perception of feeling artworks. Like, tough to let them have the feeling "participate in an art event." 16:01:08 From Olivia Monahan to All panelists : Do you have examples of good online curated art galleries? 16:02:22 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : is vaporwave on bandcamp a purely online art exhibit? 16:03:07 From Robert Buelteman : Joel is spot on here - it is the viewer who completes the creative circle 16:03:10 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : your t mic@ 16:03:14 From Robert Edgar to All panelists : You’re muted, piereo 16:03:28 From Racelar Ho : there’s an VR exhibition on stream 16:03:37 From Racelar Ho : a few 16:03:41 From Laurie jones to All panelists : true - the viewer is part of the art. 16:03:48 From Kristina Dutton : Yeah good point about Vaporwave but it has live versions too 16:03:50 From Andrew Blanton : Gene Youngblood had some really nice thoughts on this in the presentation vs re-presentation of works https://vimeo.com/22724713 - but that was also in the context of video art and real time video work 16:03:55 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : your not Socrates scaruffi 16:04:03 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : sorry pythag 16:04:41 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : Kristina is that real vaporwave though? jk really 16:04:49 From Robert Buelteman : Without the tangible experience of sharing the finished pieces to other human beings, as opposed to the gray world of uploads, the process lacks something . . . 16:04:55 From Suyash Joshi : Interesting performance art example would be stand up comedians, I think they use online media really well as that drives people to see them live 16:04:58 From Kristina Dutton : Dillon haha 16:05:12 From Marilene Oliver : Is the VR exhibition the Museum of Other Realities? Interested to hear what people think of this… 16:05:33 From Racelar Ho : @Marilene yes, there’s a few 16:06:43 From Gabriel Harrison to All panelists : spatial implications are as critical as social implications in the experience. Art spaces/galleries and museums are not monolithic. a piece of performance art (a sermon) is very different on a street corner, local church or in a cathedral, almost independent of the number of others in proximity to you. 16:07:56 From Laurie jones to All panelists : as soon as we start naming it Art we begin to move away from the message IMO. This discourse is interesting but it seems obscured by language and vocabulary... 16:09:00 From Laurie jones to All panelists : I managed to decipher Caroline 16:09:26 From Suyash Joshi : Computer history museum maybe? 16:09:30 From luca forcucci to All panelists : bazar compatible is Shanghai 16:09:50 From luca forcucci to All panelists : the wrong biennale 16:10:06 From Peggy Phelan to All panelists : Institutionally it's quite complicated. At the moment, most on-line curation is handled by education deprtments in museums 16:10:09 From Bob Horn to All panelists : What ARE THESE proliferating art galleries 16:10:11 From Laurie jones to All panelists : No curatation. Is this the way forward? 16:10:14 From Randall Packer : Furtherfield in London run by Marc Garrett and Ruth Catlow have been showing online since the 1990s: https://www.furtherfield.org/ 16:10:46 From Peggy Phelan to All panelists : the pandemic is opening that up to senior curatorial staff and this will change what is shown and why 16:11:26 From Caroline Jones : here's a piece on what the virus teaches us: 16:11:28 From Caroline Jones : https://www.artforum.com/print/202005/caroline-a-jones-82828 16:11:48 From Peggy Phelan to All panelists : @caroline, thanks. nice shout out to ameila! (peggy phelan) 16:11:52 From David Familian : i wish there is a more formal way of asking questions like a regular talk 16:12:07 From Caroline Jones to Peggy Phelan and all panelists : so cool to see you in the participant list -- the only one I know 16:12:25 From Peggy Phelan to All panelists : very glad you came! 16:12:32 From Suyash Joshi : Very interesting panel discussion..lot to think about 16:12:33 From Robert Buelteman : Thanks, Panelists! 16:12:34 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : we should find a "venue" for this chat!! 16:12:35 From Steven j Oscherwitz to All panelists : wonderful great thanks 16:12:35 From Robert Edgar to All panelists : Thanks all. 16:12:37 From Racelar Ho : Thank you! 16:12:40 From Andrew Blanton : Thanks for the talk! 16:12:40 From John Parham : Thank you all! 16:12:44 From Meredith Tromble to All panelists : Thank you, all! 16:12:46 From Marilene Oliver : I just put together an online exhibition which was quite an experience….In some cases artists created digital versions of their works but in others they really transformed their practice to exist online. Dyscorpia 2.1 www.dyscorpia.com 16:12:46 From Racelar Ho : It’s amazing talk 16:12:52 From Suyash Joshi to All panelists : Piero’s blog? 16:12:52 From Jennifer Karson : Thank you! 16:12:54 From steve schreibman to All panelists : thank you very much 16:12:55 From Suyash Joshi to All panelists : a "venue" for this chat could be Patch created by Grey Area (?) 16:12:56 From Caroline Jones : great comments and questions all 16:13:01 From Suyash Joshi to All panelists : on Patch* 16:13:02 From Marilene Oliver : Thank you! 16:13:04 From Bob Horn to All panelists : I cant click on the links in the chat…cant copy them out either! 16:13:04 From Karl Heitman to All panelists : Very interesting perspectives, Thanks 16:13:14 From Chau Marie Griffiths to All panelists : Yes many art museums have full virtual art exhibitions that they have curated such as https://www.famsf.org and of course JP Getty, so much to see online! Thanks so much 16:13:17 From Randall Packer : Thank you. 16:13:19 From DILLON SYLVESTRE : ty 16:13:21 From Suyash Joshi to All panelists : Thank you!